tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post8216391427415476537..comments2023-08-27T12:35:12.308+02:00Comments on sanscrite cogitare, sanscrite loqui: The Caṅgam corpus and the concept of God in ancient Indiaelisa freschihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17068583874519657894noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-88296334709306282112012-07-31T09:15:06.275+02:002012-07-31T09:15:06.275+02:00The problem is that a "Vedic corpus" has...The problem is that a "Vedic corpus" has been reconstructed a posteriori out of texts written in very different times and milieus. The Ṛgveda, to name an example, seems quite different from a ritual-speculative Brāhmaṇalike the Śatapatha. As for the language, it also develops gradually from one layer to the next. The Saṃhitās are quite tough for a Sanskritist, who will, instead, find the language of the Brāhmaṇas overall accessible.elisa freschihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17068583874519657894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-90557337063758575902012-07-31T01:25:59.876+02:002012-07-31T01:25:59.876+02:00What is disputable about Vedic corpus? Are they al...What is disputable about Vedic corpus? Are they all not composed in Vedic Sanskrit?Ramakrishnan Suryanarayananhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01093097904423217160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-69123468697532579092012-05-31T11:58:11.109+02:002012-05-31T11:58:11.109+02:00Yes, good point. "Vedic" is also very mu...Yes, good point. "Vedic" is also very much disputable.elisa freschihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17068583874519657894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-11370570814963225402012-05-30T22:02:05.675+02:002012-05-30T22:02:05.675+02:00Cankam Corpus is the standard umbrella-term for th...Cankam Corpus is the standard umbrella-term for these texts and I have not seen other alternative. That statement was more in the sense, that I felt that the term 'cankam corpus' was somewhat similar to the term 'vedic text' used for rg vedic and brahmana-s and upanishad-s.Vidyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-70543729404836834432012-05-30T14:37:17.813+02:002012-05-30T14:37:17.813+02:00Vidya,
do we have any alternative to the usage of ...Vidya,<br />do we have any alternative to the usage of "Caṅkam corpus"? And is not it in itself interesting to investigate on a heterogeneous det of texts, which have however been regarded as a corpus by the subsequent tradition? (I am really asking in order to get an answer, since my expertise in this field is nil).elisa freschihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17068583874519657894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-16251154785325907212012-05-29T08:08:58.746+02:002012-05-29T08:08:58.746+02:00Elisa,
One yes, geography was an integral part of ...Elisa,<br />One yes, geography was an integral part of cankam literature in the sense of the five landscape divisions. In the early history, the deities did have a name but no form or specific place. They were linked as you say to a generic type of landscape as in korravai the Goddess is the deity of "the desertlands". This is according to what I see from the texts themselves. <br /><br />However the specific text I referred (which is part of the cankam corpus named pattupāttu - the ten idylls) is generally considered a later text precisely some of the reasons outlined). The name of the text is tirumurukāRRupatai is on muruka and there are specific references to deities like Brahma, Vishnu and Siva and the locations of sacred places where Murukan is worshipped such as tirupparankunram, āvinankuti etc and the modes of worship there. This text would mark the third step in your post.<br /><br />And then among all this, there are however some references of the type which people use to draw inferences: "The creator of this world" (narrinai 240) and heroine in kalittokai telling her friend that her fear is not being united with her lover in future births etc. Sometimes, it does seem that the term 'cankam corpus' is too heterogeneous and should be done away with for the purpose of evolutionary analysis!Vidyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-5904184105061497242012-05-29T07:06:27.623+02:002012-05-29T07:06:27.623+02:00@Vidya,
thanks for your comment. I am not in the ...@Vidya,<br /><br />thanks for your comment. I am not in the position to elaborate further on several of your points, but I would be grateful if you could send me a couple of answers on the following points:<br />–addition of geography: do you mean to say that also geographical names have been added? Thus, the deities were thought of w.r.to "rivers" and not to a certain river?<br />–what intrigues me is this different conception of Divinity. We are used to the alternative theist/atheist, which is conceived in regard to a single (or at least: a chief) god, and often even tend to think that, e.g., Buddhism is not a religion because it is atheist (in the above sense)…elisa freschihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17068583874519657894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-81408586302972858802012-05-28T18:21:56.929+02:002012-05-28T18:21:56.929+02:00Thanks all of you for your interesting comments (w...Thanks all of you for your interesting comments (which ---I have to admit--- go beyond my expertise). <br /><br />@Andrew: I agree with your opinion against distinguishing the native from the foreign (in fact, I dislike these interpretations even when applied to Northern India, with Buddhist being "non-aryan" and, hence, probably belonging to a more ancient stratum). As for "Stravinskij's point", let me repeat that E. Wilden stressed most of all the formal elements I listed first. It is just my personal interest which made me highlight the concept of deities.elisa freschihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17068583874519657894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-76709253720358120932012-05-28T12:28:08.023+02:002012-05-28T12:28:08.023+02:00(by that measure, stravinsky lived around the thir...(by that measure, stravinsky lived around the third century.)<br /><br />LOL.Philliphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07829053219715458764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-43947197514017351222012-05-27T05:58:13.718+02:002012-05-27T05:58:13.718+02:00It is true that caṅkam deities did not have a form...It is true that caṅkam deities did not have a form in the sense of "iconography". The early deities were concieved w.r.to the divisions of landscape or tiṇai ie mountaineous, pastoral, agricultural, seaside and desert but the deities definitely had specific names such as māyon, ceyon, ventan, koRRavai etc<br /><br />However it is true that relatively later texts - one example that comes to my mind is the tirumurukarruppatai which is part of the pattu pāṭṭu anthology has verses that detail the functions of the 12 hands, six faces and references to specific sacred places are already in place. Similarly in the paripāṭal too has specific details about siva's iconography where he wears a konRai flower and has matted hair.<br /><br />As for the invocation stanza in many cases for texts like puRanānūru, it is written by bharatham pādiya perunthevanaar and has a specific author's name attached, based on which one can make a reasoned guess on when it was added on even without the meter. <br /><br />So one we have poems (these would not be hymns but poems or songs) composed in different time periods such as tirumurukarruppatai vs<br />puRanānūru which are again loosely compiled sets of songs each of which may have different time periods. <br /><br />The other aspect is the writers of urai-s added the tokai (collection) number which came much later. In some senses, even the uniform application of geographies to a pre-existing orally transmitted (by wandering bards) is a later addition in terms of understanding the corpus.<br /><br />There was one article I read a while back where the author says the early cankam period had no notions of mukti, liberation, other worlds etc. I will post the link when I find it again.Vidya Jayaramanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11878238708389655574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6641738716446631837.post-27126821028791768432012-05-26T16:20:42.001+02:002012-05-26T16:20:42.001+02:00of course literature (especially anthologies) pres...of course literature (especially anthologies) present a variety of representations/concepts/views of divinity. but i am kind of wary of the developmental schema here (which is more salutory, i admit, than the schema of "native dravidian" versus "foreign aryan" that one used to encounter so often). i definitely don't think that literature can be dated with any degree of certainly by the stage (out of several discrete and successive stages) in which its representation of the divine falls. by that measure, stravinsky lived around the third century.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791239532349650572noreply@blogger.com